Tour of Frumster #2
I decide to e-mail a girl and see if she responds. Her name was normal and she had some realistic views. I send a polite e-mail asking if she would like to communicate. I recieve a prewritten letter, sorry, she doesn't think it is compatable. Huh?! We didn't even write one word to each other. Ok, maybe she is PMSing. I write to another one. Same response. After e-mailing 6 girls, I recieve a 2 responses that seem promising. One said she is currently seeing someone but if it doesn't work out she will get back to me. The other wrote a letter stating, hello and sort of a question/statement- tell me all about yourself. Equivelent to a/s/l on chat. I write back my specs. She continues to send back one line responses as if to tease all the information out of me with out giving me any information about her. I ask what is your name? She gives a first name and last initial. After a flurry of one line e-mails, I am quickly getting tired of this. I see she has AIM. I give her my SN and ask her if she would like to continue to talk over instant message. She consents. After some playful pingpong without knowing too much about her she gives me her phone number and says if you want to call me to talk, you can. Huh? What does that mean?! I am looking for a wife, not a phychiatrist. I forgot to mention, she was going for social working. Bekitzur, when ever I called her she said, "Sorry I am busy, can I call you back?", but she never did. We played phone tag for a week, until I told her I don't have car, so she said, "Oh, I don't think this will work out, please don't call me again".
I decide to try my luck again before my subscription expired for the month. I wrote to 3 other girls. One deleted my message right away. Another said she was looking for someone more professional. The last one then gave me her password to her photo. The next day my subscription expired.
There you have it, my fiasco with Frumster.com -I believe it is good for older couples, but for young immature boys and girls who don't understand each other, it is a disaster.
Really, I can't understand. Could someone please explain to me what are girls looking for in a mate? Are they being forced to marry when they do not want to be? Do they realize marriage is NOT about pushing a lazy husband to make money so they could go shopping?
What does a girl, who is not favored by the current shidduch system, do to find a ben torah? Up until what age does a normal girl look to marry a ben torah and then gives up hope? Is there a diffrence between a girl who would use the shidduch system and a girl who would meet a guy through mutual friends or in college? What is the difference? Why do some girls look for a ben torah and others look for other qualities in a guy? Do girls find it hard to find good beni torah who are a mentch, or are they a dime a dozen?
Any help in answering these questions are appreciated.
posted by EN at 9:36 AM
14 Comments:
it sounds to me like you know what your looking for and have no problem opening up. A lot of people who use online dating sites have experiences in meeting "interesting" people. When I used online sites I was vary wary of giving out my contact info or being too specific about what i was looking for b/c of past experiences. And a lot of people are not a)trueful or b) exaggerate their profile to "look" better. But once you sludge through the much you can find a greener pasture. sometimes.
i'll be honest, i ha done good dating experience on Frumster (my only actually) and me and the girl actually went out for a little over two months.
beyond that i had no other experience with an online dating, though my profile is still there and on futuresimchas, b/c who knows.
it works for some, not for others.
though i think taht in todays age most girls may be expecting more than what the guys want. none of my friends atleast, the guys working and not working, would rather be able to have a better family life than working 24 hour days to buy 500,000 dollar houses in teaneck, the five towns, and no even brooklyn and queens.
The difference between girls who use the shidduch system and girls who like to date mutual friends of people or otherwise, to my mind (and this is only what I've heard, as I'm too young to be engaged in all this) is that the girls who do not use the shidduch system are many times more idealistic and younger. They haven't been jaded or discouraged, and they're probably pretty confident in themselves. They are also usually noncomformists, or at least, they don't like the "stereotypical" idea of the shidduch system- listing all kinds of qualities, talking about what makes a ben torah, kollel and support-systems. I know a lot of more modern-orthodox girls who would prefer to date people who haven't been "found" for them through a shidduch system, but who they discovered at college/ whatnot. But that doesn't mean they won't resort to the shidduch system later...many will, I'm sure. Just my thoughts...
Regarding the use of "auto-reply" on Frumster (the message a girl would probably send telling you that you wouldn't be a good match with her): sometimes you just know when someone isn't a good match without even talking to them. Chances are, the girls looked at your profile and, for one reason or another, you aren't what they were looking for.
Don't take it personally. (Easy for me to say, I know.)
Take heart - we've all been auto-replied to, my dear.
Your bashert is out there - the auto-reply just saved you some email time and perhaps money you would've spent taking her out on a date when she had a gut feeling it wasn't going to work right from the start
"Up until what age does a normal girl look to marry a ben torah and then gives up hope? "
I can only speak for myself-
No age,I want a ben torah-in everything he does. whether if hes sitting in front of his Gemorah 24/7 or if hes out working. Torah comes first,His shir should be his MAIN part of his day- even after a long day at the office or in the early hours of the morning before shacharis.
"Do girls find it hard to find good beni torah who are a mentch, or are they a dime a dozen?"
Why do you think there are so many single girls out there?!?
Why would anyone want to settle for less then a mentch whos a beni torah?
WHATS WITH THE GUYS?!??
Thanks for all your helpful comments!
Maybe the girls on Frumster are all immature and selfish and money-oriented.... And maybe they just did not like your profile. If you are getting consistently bad responses, it might be that your profile could use some work. Couple questions on that:
1) Do you have a photo? Is it a good one? I almost never respond to profiles without photos. I invariably wonder what the guy has to had. I am consistently shocked at the horrible, horrible photos that men post. Really men, we women aren't as shallow as you, but...how to put this delicately...we need to be attracted too.
2) How do you describe what you are looking for? Many of my friends (and I) will outright reject any man who describes his ideal woman as "slim" or "attractive" --we don't like shallow men. Our attitude: if that is in your list of key qualities--man, go find a freakin' Barbie and leave me alone!
It does bear pointing out that a guy who wants to be a Ben Torah should, ideally, be looking for an Aishet Chayil. As in "sheker ha'chen v'hevel ha'yofi". I know that you struggle with this, but still....
3) How do you come across in your essays? Are you negative? Do you bash girls not looking for a Ben-Torah? Negative profiles=ISSUES!!
Big, enormous red flag. Do you (G-d forbid) write about how you are not looking for a shallow creature, who thinks only of money? Again, there is a huge difference between "thinking that marriage is a means to shopping" and "not wanting to live in dire poverty or sucking off her parents for the rest of one's days".
4) It could also be that Frumster is not 'the place' for those looking for a Ben Torah to go.
Why don't you post a couple of your Frumster essays and let us see if we can help?
Daphna- Thanks for the comment. True, I am over doing it by a little. There are many great girls out there, that are not meterialistic, and that aren't for me. I was letting out my frustration with what seems a lack of "compatible" girls for me. From their profiles and actions it seems to me they are rejecting me because of their desire for wealth or status which I can't provide. I don't mean in any way to generalize girls, (although that is what I end up doing ;) ).
Try to bear one thing in mind: if you decide to be a ben Torah, the woman who marries you will bear a very, very heavy load. Sure, you might find someone with wealthy parents. Or, more likely, you will find a girl who will be expected to work full time to support you and the family, raise the kids day AND night (b/c you will be off at shiurim at nights, right?), do all or most of the cooking and cleaning, quite possibly living on a very tight budget, and knowing that this is not temporary...and all this while her husband is (let's be honest here), doing enjoyable stuff that he likes to do. You are looking for someone very special--don't expect to find her easily.
Perhaps looking at it from another angle would help. There are lots of people who study law. How many of them forgo the $$$ in favor of working for peanuts for legal aid or some other public interest. A lot of them might like to do that, theoretically. But it is not an easy choice to make. For that matter...suppose you meet two identical women. Identical in every way, shape and form. Both of them are lawyers. (Young lawyers, of course). One works for a firm doing corporate law, earns $100K/year and can easily support you guys quite well. The other one works for an organization that provides free legal services to elderly and immigrant Jews who might otherwise have no recourse against the more unscrupulous members of society. But she earns only $20,000/year. In New York! Which one would YOU pick?
Daphna
daphna- Will the one makeing 100k be happy or grouchy? If they are exactly the same and won't be different in any way why shouldn't I choose the 100k girl? Of course this is not reality. There will always be trade offs. Honestly, I look for looks more than I do for money. I would give up a trade off of money for looks. It might be silly of me, but that is my nature. My main complaint is girls who expect a lot and think their husband owes it to them. Nothing to do with learning or not. Just a plain metchilichkeit (how do you say that for women?) . A husband is not a slave. Everyone can live without great wealth instead of being stressed.If a girl finds a rich man, fine take him, but know that for money she is giving up something much more eternal if he doesn't learn in order to make money, and it will be her fault.
"A husband is not a slave. Everyone can live without great wealth instead of being stressed.If a girl finds a rich man, fine take him, but know that for money she is giving up something much more eternal if he doesn't learn in order to make money, and it will be her fault. "
A wife is not an object. Everyone can live without great beauty instead of being stressed. If a man finds a gorgous woman, fine, take her, but know that for this hollow, easily destroyed (one car accident and she is a DOG!) exterior he is giving up something much more eternal if she ignores her deeper qualities or the needs of others in favor of her looks, and it will be all his fault.
Hello!!!! Hello!!!!! Anyone home???? Beuller? Beuller?
Who is the shallow and petty one here? The woman who is thinking of whether or not her children will have a roof over their heads and food to eat or the guy who is thinking about looking like a big man in front of the other guys 'cause he has a hot wife? And forget about this rich nonsense! Just get off your high horse because you have NO cause to ride it. A woman who chooses a Torah Scholar, at least here in Israel, is often choosing a life of dire poverty. Middle class versus rich, okay-you have a point--she is putting money high up on the list. But dire poverty versus having what to pay the grocer with--sorry, no sympathy for you. You should respect how difficult the decision would be to make, especially since the entire brunt of family support would be on her shoulders.
Doesn't Torah study involve any mussar anymore? Did they ban it or something? Midot--they're not just for women anymore. You understand your own petty fears; why can you not understand the real fears of others?
Anon(daphna?)- I really appreciate your comment you have placed it in a whole new perspective for me. For that I will be eternally greatful. True I want a good looking wife to show off, and to look at instead of waking each day to a gloomy morning.But I do need to look beyond th external and focus on the internal.Thanks again. ;)
Hello again-
First, yes, this is Daphna. Second, I think your overall attitude is wrong. You are putting YOURSELF up on a pedestal. YOU are to study Torah and the woman should be slobberingly grateful to participate. Ummmm...would you want to date you? Would you want to marry you? Even if you wanted to marry a Ben Torah, wouldn't you want someone who would appreciate the sacrifices you would be making? I mean, it is clear what your wife is giving up--taking on a life of drudgery and double work. What about you? What are you planning on giving up in exchange for the opportunity to study Torah? Not so much. And yet all the girls are getting from you is "you should be grateful to get a guy like me". Ummmmmm...right. Whatever.
May I suggest a role model for you? How about Rabbi Akiva? His POV: His WIFE deserves the honor, because she took on the backbreaking work involved in allowing him to study. He was grateful to HER! He gave HER the credit and the respect. What is more, he did so publicly, in front of all of his students. This woman is the source of the wisdom! Not me!
So where is your gratitude? Where is your honor? Where is your respect? Where is your appreciation?
Again, to clarify--I see this whole issue from the POV of Israel. A woman who makes that choice here is often making an extraordinary commitment. Some of them might be doing well but a lot of these people are poor poor poor. No new clothes, no new anythiing. Especially now, that the government support has been cut back. (Incidentally, I support a lot of the reforms, but that is a whole other discussion). I would not make the same choice, but I cannot help but respect these women for the strength of their convictions. Their husbands should be beside themselves with gratitude--treating their wives like royalty (in the non-monetary sense, of course--for these women who are willing to live such difficult lives for the sake of Torah.
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