Tuesday, August 09, 2005

LOVE?

Am I in love?

B'H the date on Sunday went well. The conversation flowed and I really felt a deep connection to her. She was very Tznius in her dress and speech. She made me fell good and cared about me. I felt comfortable around her. I felt a progression in my ability to trust my neshama and ruchnius in her hands. As usual with me, the point of doubt arises in her body. She happens to be a little too well rounded for what I hoped my future wife would be. A little too much extra goodness in the wrong places. B'H her personality outshines this small disturbance and I am going to try all my might to ignore it. No girl is perfect. (Or boy, of course). When I am in her presence the rest of the world melts into oblivion. But when I am away from her, the Yetzer Hara has me jealous of all the girls I see. I think why can't my wife have fantastic legs and body. Why must she have a little dry skin and not flawless smooth hair and skin? Then I shake my head and push those feelings and say the next girl won't love me like this one does. When I speak to her on the phone she makes me melt. I feel so comfortable speaking to her. I hope this will be the beginning of a happy and joyful journey. It is still early to tell and must go on for a while, but it is a start of something beautiful that I never knew existed.

35 Comments:

Blogger Elisheva said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:17 AM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Wow! Was this the first date? I'd think it's too fast to see all the things you say you do. But then again, maybe you are just very perceptive.

About the looks. I'd like to share my two cents. I always wonder how some people seem not to notice that their spouses are just not that great-looking. I mean, like, don't they have the desires I do, and all of us do I think?

And I realized that with friends (I shouldn't take credit for this, i read it, and it made sense, and I realized it is true in my life), but I realized that with friends we don't even notice their looks.

Not that a spouse is a friend. Obviously there has to be ALOT of physical attraction (I think) for a spouse. But I think that once we get to know someone as a friend, we sometimes don't notice lots of things, or maybe they look different to us. Like freckles could look awkward, or they could look cute. Maybe it changes as you get to like the person.

So it must be a problem if after everything you still have a problem with looks, but it might be a good idea to see if they still look the same to you after you learn to like the person.

Best of Hatzlacha.

1:19 AM  
Blogger The Chainik Hocker said...

If the looks are a total dealbreaker (ie 400 pounds, no teeth, and a wooden leg), break it off now no matter how great her personallity is. In a situation like this, however, where she is a great girl but not a perfect ten, only an eight-and-a-half, try one or two more dates, see if you get over it.

"I felt comfortable around her. I felt a progression in my ability to trust my neshama and ruchnius in her hands."

Such people are rare indeed, my friend. How rare? Imagine the Pope giving shiur in Zohar to a class of Al Quada bucherim in the Satmar Bais Medrash. People like that are more rare than good metaphors.

Trying to help.

1:22 AM  
Blogger The Chainik Hocker said...

Also, this is just me, not a minhag just a weird superstition, but I personally don't know if I'd go out during the Nine Day.

Just saying.

1:24 AM  
Anonymous Chana said...

I'm glad you met her and that she makes you feel happy, that the conversation flows, that you might desire her mind and personality.

Personally, I would say that if you do not desire her body- if you are jealous of other girls you see, of their bodies- it is not simply something you can ignore. I saw you wrote, "B'H her personality outshines this small disturbance and I am going to try all my might to ignore it. No girl is perfect." Look at your own words, EN. You consider this a disturbance. You are going to have to try with all your might to forget about it.

As I'm sure you realize yourself, this wouldn't be fair- you deserve to marry someone you love for her mind and body, not someone where you are going to have to try to forget about the woman's appearance/ body. What if a woman thought about you and thought you were too tall/ short/ fat but had a nice personality? Would you want a woman who liked you despite your physical appearance? A woman jealous of other men on the street, and a woman who would have to try to take her mind off certain aspects of your body were she to ever make love to you?

I think not. But that's my personal opinion. The fact that you're feeling uneasy or are jealous of other women doesn't really seem to key the word "love" to me. You can have her as a friend if you really sense such a close connection- a friend of the mind.

You also wrote, "She made me fell good and cared about me" and "the next girl won't love me like this one does." But what does it matter- the way in which she makes you feel, the way in which she loves you? How do you feel about her? Do you love her? You write about her love for you, her personality- but your response is that you need to keep on defending her to yourself in your mind.

Take care, EN :) Be well.

9:38 AM  
Blogger Pragmatician said...

Physical appearance is important, and if you can’t stand to look at a girl than maybe there's no point in continuing.
But I think that if it bothered you so much it would've barred the way for you to notice her overall pleasant personality.
What I'm saying, is that without you realizing it, you have already accepted her temporary flaw (eventually this can be discussed as the date progress).

10:16 AM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

Sounds so sweet...

Remember:

Looks can change. Inevitably, at some point they do.

And there is no limit as to "more beautiful"... what society considers beautiful, that is.

The test: there should be attraction - that should deepen with time. And no basic turn-offs.

Just my 2 cents.

10:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good point turquoiseblue. Looks do change. Someone who has "fantastic legs and body" today might have "A little too much extra goodness in the wrong places" and "dry skin" in five years from now. You need to look past those things and focus on the qualities that last and matter most.

11:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You should definitely go out during the 9 days. You are even allowed to get engaged during the 9 days, so seriously do we take the need to find one's soulmate.

1:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

chainik hocker--
rofl!

1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Get over it. Once she has a kid or two her figure is not going to be the same anyway.

2:36 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

Wow, you're lucky to be where you're at the point of saying, "I can look past her beauty." I'm not saying that you are or are not at some crazy falling in love state, but the qualities you describe are what is important. As the other commentators pointed out, beauty fades, but the ability to stare into somebody's eyes forever never does.

8:04 PM  
Blogger Me, Uncensored said...

What turquoiseblue said.

As far as checking out other women -- you're gonna do that till the day you die. You will ALWAYS be able to find someone "better" than your spouse in some area. There will be women more beautiful, smarter, etc. etc.

Just as whoever you end up with will meet men who are smarter, better looking, richer, etc.

The challenge is sticking to your vows, even when somebody else would, or seems like they would, make you happier.

If you're not totally repulsed by this girl (if you are, break it off), go for it! Sexual attraction waxes and wanes like the moon anyway. It may well be that she's your "type" after all and you just don't know it yet :)

9:26 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

I wish you the best of luck in this. Hope all goes well.

11:43 PM  
Blogger Lvnsm27 said...

me too, I wish you hatzlacha

2:33 AM  
Blogger Miriam said...

Sounds promising EN. B'hatzlacha!

5:42 AM  
Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

Sweetie, I haven't read that much of your blog, and maybe I should before commenting, but there's something wrong with the picture here.
There is nothing wrong with having a little extra pudge in a stomach or hip or thigh or back. As a matter of fact, the pressure put on girls in the shidduch world to all have to wear a size 2 is ridiculous. I don't know what you look like...do you, perhaps, look like Brad Pitt? Because if you do then you could ask to have a girl who is likewise as gorgeous as you are...if not, why are you?
Of course, there's nothing wrong with finding "perfect" looking girls attractive, but your main concern shouldn't be how attractive your date is, but how attractive you are.

4:18 PM  
Blogger EN said...

browsville-the fact if I do or do not look like brad pitt has nothing to do with the girl I want to marry. I like looking a pretty girl. I deserve such. Your logic is flawed. I don't have to marry someone who is on the same level as me. I always look up. I want to become better, not lower. You think all ugly people should marry ugly people?! I say, share the gene pool and ugly should marry good looking and eradicate uglyness.

5:49 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Wow. Brownsville, I can see your points, but also Yeshiva Bachur's.

Like one has to be attracted to the person they are going to marry, regardless of how they look. Otherwise it will only cause problems.

On the other hand, not being a size 2 can usually not be called not looking good. Looking good should be what someone likes not what his friends say is in style and are trying to show off to each other.

7:26 PM  
Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

"You think all ugly people should marry ugly people?!"

No. I said no such thing. I'll outline my points, because I might have confused them in my comment:
1. Looks should not determine worth.
2. Chub in a few extra places does not lessen a person's level of attractiveness just because advertisements tell you that women who are on top are thin as sticks.
3. You should be more concerned with how you look to someone (this is paraphrasing Rabbi Avigdor Miller who said the first step a person has to take when dating is to look themselves over in the mirror and decide whether they'd date themselves and then work on what they find unsatisfactory) than how they look to you. Period.
4. It's because of people who think that every girl should have perfect measurements that there are girls who are throwing their meals up while still in high school and starving themselves after high school. I know, I went to a Jewish all-girls school. The pressure to have hip bones that jut out is more intense than the pressure to do chesed outside of school.
I hope I was clear. If not, I can always explain what I wasn't clear about.

1:03 AM  
Blogger Shlomo Schwartz said...

I really have no right to say what I'm saying as I don't know you at all and hardly read your blog, but I'll say it anyway.

You say "No girl is perfect." only because for you, "a little too well rounded" takes away from perfection. For those of us whose 'pound limits' are a little higher than yours, perfection in a girl does exist.

8:54 AM  
Blogger Daphna said...

Okay, I have to ask....

You "deserve" a pretty girl? Really? Why? Really, think about what you are saying here. Who are you, what are you, what have you done, to feel that you deserve anything? Just remember: when push comes to shove, Hashem is the one deciding what you "deserve".

On the other hand, is a pretty girl such a prize that this is all you aim for? Maybe you are undervaluing your own worth by letting your more "animal" elements have such a huge say in this decision.

Remember--one car accident, and the pretty girl is a dog. But that same car accident, and the kind, sweet girl is probably still pretty good. Sheker ha'hein, v'hevel ha'yofi. Yes, attraction *is* important. No question about it. But you really have to keep firmly in mind how fragile is this aspect you are being drawn to. Even ask yourself--if her thyroid goes out of whack tommorow, and she gains 40 pounds, is there enough there in her mind and personality that you can still love her.

Regarding whether you look like Brad Pitt--maybe it does not matter to you, but trust me, pretty girls know they are pretty. And they know their market value, as it were. They know lots of guys want them...and that they can hold out for the Brad Pitt. So if you want a gorgeous girl, and you are kinda fat and sloppy, take the time to clean up. For that matter, us average girls/women aren't so keen on nebbishy guys either. Remember--women have to feel attraction too. (Sooooo many guys forget that!)

Finally, I am echoing Chana here, but it is a bit concerning--lots about how she makes you feel...and very little about how you feel about her. Though I will respectfully disagree with Chana in regards to keeping her as a friend. IMHO, even if you want the friendship, such relationships are often harmful for women because it keeps us fantasizing that "someday he will see how wonderful I am". No milk without buying the cow applies to emotional benefits as much as it does to sexual benefits. It is all or nothing.

Good luck!

5:45 PM  
Blogger EN said...

To clarify my feelings better, I would like to say I agree with Daphna, and Brownsville that I, as the male half of a marriage, have an obligation to be the best I can be, and, as I am not perfect, so I should not expect that in a wife. However it still is dissapointing that I am attracted to other prettier women. If this girl is the one, which I do feel she has great potential because of her sterling middos, I am still bothered by the fact I am not TOTALLY attracted to her physically. It bothers me that I am not content with her. It is hard to learn to appreciate a type of body build that has been ingrained in me for years that it is unhealthy, awkward, not fun because it is not athletic, I can't go jogging with her, have many sex positions, can't go bike riding, mountain climbing ect. It is a feeling that this is all I am going to have. It makes me realize I am worthless to the rest of womenkind. Every pretty girl looks down at me that I am ugly. That hurts. It could be because I look down at ugly people, but these thought are there and it is hard to lie to myself and say I am comfortable being looked down upon. There is also no logical explaination for feeling the way i do when I continue to see pretty girls if intellectually I know I have a girl who I want to marry. That feeling will never go away and that is infuriating.

6:13 PM  
Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

"If this girl is the one, which I do feel she has great potential because of her sterling middos,"

That isn't what you should be basing that on. Lots of people have "sterling middos." What are her middot that you think are so sterling? Is she kind to her siblings? Does she organize shiurim? Does she make bake sales to raise money for poor children in Israel? Because even then you have to think about which of these are compatible with you.
I went out with a guy on a number of dates (shidduch) and he was an amazing guy. I couldn't even tell you the amount of chessed he's done because to be unspecific wouldn't do him justice and I can't say anything about him here. Despite all that, he just wasn't for me.
There are also guys you date who treat you really well and you know that if you marry him, he'd make sure you're always happy and always doing well. But you know what? Just because someone is a good person doesn't make them the person for you.
So to say that just because a girl has gret middot, she might be the one sounds very immature to me.
And daphna made some excellent points, you should really listen to what she said.

7:20 PM  
Blogger EN said...

Browsville- "Lots of people have sterling middos."

I happen to disagree. It is very rare to find any girl with sterling middos. Girls are raised by there fathers that they are princessess and that a boy should serve them. This is called a JAP. Out of the 15-17 girls I have dated 99% were JAP's. This girl happens to respect, and is kind to me and anyone else. I can see it in her talk, walk, and actions. Most girl expect the guy to impress them, she is not like that at all. From what you write I think you are still immature in marriage because you are so picky.

10:34 PM  
Blogger Daphna said...

"Most girl expect the guy to impress them, she is not like that at all. From what you write I think you are still immature in marriage because you are so picky."

Whereas you expect the girl... oh yeah, to be a hottie with a good body to keep your ego boosted.

Listen, maybe you should refrain from calling other people picky? At the very least. Because otherwise, you come across as a hypocrite. For that matter, Brownsville made good points, and is arguing in favor of a healthier, more balanced view of women.

Incidentally, I realize that you are (I sincerely hope) waiting for marriage for all of the wild sexual positions you referenced in your earlier comments. Please believe me--fat people have fun too. Just bear that in mind, because after your wife has the 10 kids, you still have a lot of years of marriage to go. And I would hate for you to think of that as kinda a desert. And enough said on that note.

Regarding JAP's--you seem to come across them a great deal. Part of it really may be the NY "market". I never lived there, so I am willing to take your word for it. On the other hand, I suspect it is your own insecurity and confusion regarding your financial and professional future may be aggravating the situation. First of all, once you are more confident in your own decisions, that confidence will be portrayed to the young women you date. Second, I am not a JAP, and I am much older, but I would be very hesitant to date a guy who was vascillating, didn't know what he wanted to do, didn't have a profession etc. There is something very ineffectual and mama's-boy about that whole thing. Yes, it is completely normal, we all go through that confusion stage and you seem to be making solid efforts to build a future for yourself. But for now, please dan l'kaf z'chut and realize what picture you may be portraying. Even if you decide to be a social worker (horribly paid profession), once you decide and are firm and strong in that decision-voila-the you being portrayed is different. Seriously--I went through a similar phase with a career change back in December, and there really is a difference b/w the image you project once you have a plan.

Finally-in defense of women, may I remind you of a woman's traditional role? We are the nuturers and caregivers, right? So it is a woman's role to be sitting there and thinking--okay, I am going to have to put in a lot of time taking care of and raising the kids--will this guy be a good provider? In fact, a woman who does not think of that is often roundly criticized, and if she ends up in financial distress, trying to support four kids alone b/c the guy is basically a wastral--guess who gets blamed?

(Of course, the guy in the courtship ritual really is just thinking of the sex positions).

3:59 AM  
Blogger EN said...

Daphna- "For that matter, Brownsville made good points, and is arguing in favor of a healthier, more balanced view of women."

Although inner beauty is important overall for a long lasting marriage, there is more to a long lasting marriage which is waking up to someone that you can look at and enjoy. Ask god why he made extra fat unattractive. I have no idea. Unattraction is not overcome by logic. What you might be saying are valid points, however the question reamins if I like her inner beauty but do not like her outer beauty 100% what is that telling me? Is it something that is workable or is it something that will cause friction in the marriage. I am sure she wouldn't want me to be checking out other girls when we are together because I don't feel good about my ego. My ego is fragile. Girls also have egos that they need to marry rich, good looking men. Fine. But if someone themselves have an ego problem I don't want to hear from them tell me musser. (And I am not refering to you Daphna).

9:15 AM  
Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

"Ask god why he made extra fat unattractive. I have no idea."

God didn't make extra fat unattractive. As a matter of fact, until the early 1900's, extra fat was what made people attractive. If you were thin you were undesirable. Society sets the standards of beauty in each generation and our society chose "thin." True, models today aren't as thin as the models of the 90's, but they're close. You are being fed a picture of perfection when you look at ads, and the picture is of a boney woman who looks like an underdeveloped 12 year old girl. Have you been shomer all your life? Cause I noticed that guys who are shomer tend to think that what society says is "hot" is hot while most guys who've had girlfriends and have dated for real will look at an ad and say, "I can't look at this thing--these girls are freaky" and gravitate toward the girls who do have a lil extra fat. I'd take their authority over a guy who's never touched a woman any day.


"What you might be saying are valid points, however the question reamins if I like her inner beauty but do not like her outer beauty 100% what is that telling me?"

On that note...I have a funny story! I once went on a shidduch date with a guy whom your views remind me of very much, so I will relate: We went out after a fast. Since he was stuck in traffic, I broke my fast earlier. I knew he'd still be fasting when he'd come over, so I prepared a little bag with a couple of chocolate chip cookies I baked that day (always bake on fast days :)) and a small carton of orange juice. He was like, "thanks." While driving, he asked where I wanted to go eat. I told him it didn't really matter to me because I had already broken my fast and he was the hungrier one. He suggested a fleishig place and I told him I wouldn't mind going there, since he's the hungrier one, but that I'm a vegetarian. In the end, he took me--on a first date--to a fleishig restaurant where all I--the vegetarian--could eat was fish that they didn't even make properly (it was so dried out I couldn't eat it). Obviously, I said no to going out again (he didn't even try to impress me on a first date), but he did too. You wanna know why? He liked me a lot, but thought I was a militant vegetarian. Me--a militant vegetarian??? I ate out at a fleishig restaurant for him and didn't complain. I even went out of my way for him countless times on the date (I brought him food, I ate out there, and I was gracious the whole while). But note the, "he liked me a lot but." There're often buts to liking people...you just have to weigh them against the positives to decide which is a priority to you.
As for all 15 girls you met who were JAP's--don't be a fool. I went to all-girls schools from kindergarten until 12th grade. As a matter of fact, my high school might have qualified as one of the JAPpiest in the tri-state area. And you know what? None of my friends were JAP's. And those who are usually don't become that way because their fathers call them "princess." My father calls me princess, my friend Steve calls me princess, and still, I give guys a chance. But you know what it is? Girls don't just look to see if you're going to provide for them, they look to see if you're going to join in the waking up 10 times in the middle of the night to calm a crying newborn after they've (the woman) been in labor just earlier that week. If I see a guy will hold doors open for me, but will start eating as soon as food is put in front of him instead of waiting for mine to come, or will take a vegetarian to a fleishig restaurant (just to clarify: dating is not for you to get a good meal, it's to impress someone else and see if they're impressive themselves...you can always eat at a dairy place and gorge yourself when you get home...) then he's out. Not because he didn't worship me, but because I'm dating to find my potential babies a potential father. And what kind of father do I think they deserve? The kind of guy who would give the last piece of cake that he dearly wants to his kid who asks for it, even though he knows the kid will never finish it and that he wants it even more. So that's that.

10:55 AM  
Blogger Daphna said...

EN

You should listen to Brownsville. It sounds like she is coming from the female side of your world. You may not like what she has to say, but she probably knows some things that you don't! :) Seriously, you are getting some good, solid insider knowledge here. And it isn't even illegal to trade on it.

I agree with her--consideration is a big thing we notice. I always pay attention to how guys treat waitstaff at restaurants (snobby tone, lousy tip, obnoxious, etc). My last blind date adventure (a while ago) was with a guy who managed to have a little tiff with different staff at two different restaurants where a simple reminder would have sufficed. Anger issues. Bad bad bad! Got rid of him. I also pay attention to how he speaks about others. Is everyone out to get him? This one is a JAP, that one is a snob, that one is too this or too that? If his life story comes across as a "my life as a holy martyr among the unworthy slime who are out to get me"...that is a man with issues.

(This is a very, very strong hint to leave the whole "girls are materialistic JAP's" shtick at home when you are on dates.)

Regarding extra fat being unattractive--that is an individual thing. For some guys, yes, it is a deal killer. For other guys, a bit of extra padding is a turn-on. You are not representative of the entire male sex. And if what you are saying about your own looks are true, you should be hoping and praying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Because--and I have said this before and I will say it again--women need to be attracted too.

Do women need to feel attraction?

Yes. Women need to feel attraction. And just like with guys, midot are nice, torah scholars might be nice, money is nice but as an ultra-orthodox friend of mine once basically told me: "you gotta be able to look at the guy and still feel the spark".

Shabbat shalom!

11:25 AM  
Blogger EN said...

Browsville- You make me cry. I am serious, I am crying tears of pain and pity for you.

You write:
"He suggested a fleishig place and I told him I wouldn't mind going there, since he's the hungrier one",

Note, you said you wouldn't mind, so he did what he wanted, and then you dump him for doing what you said. Girls like you make me sick.You say one thing but then are judgmental. That is hypocracy. You are the one with issues. You can't judge what a guy does by looking at what he does. you have no idea why he did what he did. You always assume the worst. You are the typical JAP. He asked you where you wanted to go, right? you rebuffed his suggestion which is VERY rude. He was trying to please you and you took the lame excuse.

#2
"he didn't even try to impress me on a first date"

HuH????!!! this is the JAPiest stament I have ever heard. Who said a guy has to impress a girl??!! That is not the point of a date. I don't go loking at the girl to impress me. I observe to see if she is nice and try to work with her. If an obstical comes up then I deal with it. Fine, be a vegitarian, but it doesn't mean he can't eat meat, and if he does he wont be a good father.
As for you Daphna, I agree a guy must look good for his wife. B'H I happen to work-out every day and I am not a shlump. I take showers every day and I lift weights. I might not be the handsomes or cuteest guy around but I am around a 6-7 out of 10 and my body an 8. She is cute I would say an 7-8 1/2 but her body is a 4-5. So it does even out. She has been working with me on what type of clothes to wear. So as of now I am giving it a working shot. Time will tell. I admit, there will be girls better looking than my wife. But stay out of my way because I am going to bowl them over with a steam roller.

2:13 PM  
Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

"Note, you said you wouldn't mind, so he did what he wanted, and then you dump him for doing what you said. Girls like you make me sick."

What? Where are you from? Would you take someone who's allergic to peanuts to a peanut butter factory on a date because you think it's a fun place to go and you wanna see it? No. But what if the girl says, "well, I know you want to see it." Know what that's called? Being agreeable. Does she want to go? No. But she's okay with complying. What's your role? Not to take her anyway! DUH! Are you a total moron? Have you no sisters? I'm surprised this girl's dating you, because you sound like a selfish guy.
First dates are not for going out and bringing someone along. It's about going out with a person to see if you're interested in that person or not. Hence, your role (both guy's and girl's) is to impress the person you're with with your middot/mind/looks, etc. so that they want to see you again. Duh!


"You always assume the worst. You are the typical JAP. He asked you where you wanted to go, right? you rebuffed his suggestion which is VERY rude."

No, it is not rude. I am in a stranger's car. I do not have any means of my own transportation and I have no idea where this person is taking me. That's freaky. I am not along for the ride and dinner, he's taking me out to eat. He says, "I was thinking of this place." I say, "well...I'm a vegetarian. Um, if you're really hungry, I know you've been fasting, I don't mind then going there." I did my share of giving. He shoulda done his. Relationships aren't about give and take, they're about give and receive. And if you're not a naturally giving type, you're not going to have very happy relationships. Plus, I said no for a number of reasons--one of them was that he took me to a fleishig place.


"HuH????!!! this is the JAPiest stament I have ever heard. Who said a guy has to impress a girl??!! That is not the point of a date. I don't go loking at the girl to impress me."

Do you think that girls spend hours on their hair and outfit picking and make-up so that they can be ignored? No. We try impressing you, you try impressing us. That's what dating's about. If you don't get that then I'm terribly sorry for you. And I'm sorry for those who had to date you, too. I bet, from what you've said, that you didn't hit it off with those 17 other girls not because they were JAPs but because they said no to you and you justified it with a, "well, they're JAPs!!!"

And a few other words of advice:
You sound like a misogynist. I'd work on that attitude if I were you or you'll never get a girl worth having.

Shabbat Shalom.

5:16 PM  
Blogger EN said...

"I am in a stranger's car. I do not have any means of my own transportation and I have no idea where this person is taking me."

So next time you go on a date I want you to pick up the boy, pay for his meal, decide where to go, dress nicely, rent a car, meet his parents, start conversation, smile, act nicely all before even seeing or talking to the boy. The boy is investing more in a first date than you are. You just need to look and smell pretty and keep your mouth shut. You have it easy. The boy has to say first if he wants to go out agian. The girl is just an observer not an active participant. I ask you who is doing more giving in the start. Not the girl. SHe does nothing,eccept observe, "eh, he is messy.." did you ask him to take you to a milchig restaurant? No. You could have eaten a salad or had a drink. I dont see the conection between raising children and being hungry after a fast. It is logical to want to eat. After a fast it is a crazy time for a date anyway. I wonder who set it up for then.

Good Shabbos.

5:49 PM  
Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

So many things wrong...
"The boy is investing more in a first date than you are. You just need to look and smell pretty and keep your mouth shut."
Pardon? Keep my mouth shut??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? WHAT? I have no words!

"The girl is just an observer not an active participant. I ask you who is doing more giving in the start. Not the girl. SHe does nothing,eccept observe, "eh, he is messy..""
Your perception is so skewed, I really, really am shocked! Your impression of women is that we are hawkish to find flaws in all men are aren't willing to give up anything or to make an effort? What yeshiva did you go to?

"did you ask him to take you to a milchig restaurant? No."
Yes. I told him I'd prefer a milchig place, but since he's hungrier I wouldn't mind.

"I dont see the conection between raising children and being hungry after a fast. It is logical to want to eat."
Oy...oy...oy! Of course it's okay that he wanted to eat. There're lots of things to eat at a milchig restaurant. One needn't always have steak. It's easy to have something you don't want to have and then have something else when you get home. I did it! The point about babies is how willing to give something he is. Clearly, he has a long ways to go. Although now that I think about it, you'd probably get along well with him.

And we decided on that night because he was in law school until really late every night, and the nights he wasn't, I had late classes. So we went with a Sunday and it happened to be a fast day.

6:23 PM  
Blogger Daphna said...

"You just need to look and smell pretty and keep your mouth shut. You have it easy. The boy has to say first if he wants to go out agian. The girl is just an observer not an active participant. "

ROFL--oh my EN, if you only knew. It is no surprise that you meet so many "JAP's" (aka women who turn you down). I have gone on dates with guys like you. No way in hell do I date them twice. And it has nothing to do with the money. I can and do make my own money. I can and do buy my own dinner. I do not need a guy for that. This is not a JAP thing. This is a "woman who does not want a hate-filled-man" thing.

I am "speaking" in all seriousness and in all sincerity and b'tom lev (good will/ honesty). I really have gone on dates with guys who express themselves as you have been expressing yourself. So have all of my friends. This type of guy blames the world for his problems. Hasn't gotten married b/c girls are JAP's. Can't get ahead because the boss is an anti-semite. Can't do xyz because the world is full of terrible Jews who do not understand the importance of this or that. For every problem, there is some fault in another to blame. This is not an attractive trait. This is not a trait a woman wants in a guy, because this is a guy who will never accept true responsibility for himself and who will spend his waking hours (and yours), bitching and moaning and complaining that everyone is out to get poor, little old him.

I can completely understand that a string of bad dating experiences may have made you bitter. (I do not know how much these attitudes express themselves in other areas of your life, so I will not comment). That being said, consider speaking with a rabbi about what you can do to manage your anger and change the way you see women. If it works out with this girl, great. But if not, you are only making it rougher on yourself, and it is just a shame to do.

3:42 PM  
Blogger Armon Estates said...

Hey, can we all stop fighting and get back to the conversation about sex positions?

12:41 AM  

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