Monday, June 27, 2005


Real or Fake
Garbage Men

I would like to state my opinion on these two posts.

I believe people who label any boy into categories of learning and working is doing a big disservice and avla to girls who are looking to get married. Boys are not objects that "learn" or "earn". They have feeling and desires like any other human including girls. Everyone in life is trying to do their best. If a girl believes she is going to be "cheated" out of something by marrying the wrong boy that is a lack of emuna (or research). Lawyers, accountants, doctors, learners, garbage men, are equal in my eyes for the record. One does not have more prestige over the other. People do what they enjoy. Some have more capabilities than others and can do a greater service. It doesn't mean they are better. A boy who can learn should. When a teacher is saying to marry a "someone who learns Torah" boy I doubt they are belittling the value of making a parnassa. By even thinking and stereotyping that there is a difference, you do a disservice to yourself and others. Every man is mechuyav to provide for his wife and to learn Torah, some more, some less, depending on their level of emuna. A man doesn't have to have a "good name job" to provide for his family. The sad part is, that there are girls who are such balei gaiva that they look down upon boys who are earning a living from something that doesn't have such a good name. So what if your husband is a garbage man, it pays the rent. No wonder they can't find their shidduch.


Blogger Karl said...

"I believe people who label any boy into categories..."

And what was your last post about, wanting to know where you fit in? Which catagory you are?!

You know everything runs on labels, even in general terms.
If you really think they are all equal, does that mean you will become a garbage man if you wont be learning the whole time?

1:24 PM  
Blogger EN said...

I am not in any catagory. I call myself a jew, or yehudi, or yid but none of the other cr*ppy labels.
In answer to your last question, maybe...if I like it...I haven't tried out what I like.

1:45 PM  
Blogger Daphna said...

Don't judge the women too harshly. I was not raised to look only at what a man earns...but then, I was raised with the expectation that I could and would be educated and work. And indeed, today, I have a good education and a good job. And the thought of sitting at home with kiddies 24/7 Just like the vast majority of my friends. Which gives me the luxury of saying "okay, so if I meet a special ed teacher who earns peanuts, no problem".

On the other hand, if a man prefers a wife to stay at home with the kids, well, he should put in the effort to learn a solid profession (and garbage collector counts), so that he can pay the bills solo. Some women might choose poverty, but having actually gone through various very lean periods, I can tell you that poverty sucks and I will not condemn another person who would not willingly go into it, any more than I would condemn someone who decides not to move to Israel. I live here, and I love it, but I know how tough it is to get established; who am I to judge?

As for being dismissive of titles... It is not the job so much as it is the personality that chooses the profession. I am sure that there are garbage collectors who are avid readers, believe in continually expanding their mind, enjoy classical music, will push their children to really apply themselves in school and the like. I am also sure that many people go into these fields because they do not particulary enjoy books, learning, academics and so on, or do not have as much of a gift in this area, and garbage collection is a good solid profession where they can support a family using their strength. No problem... unless I find intelligence to be one of the most attractive traits in a man, really want a guy who holds the same views as I do on education and who loves to read. (Incidentally, I have a sibling who is a mechanic. Brilliant with his hands, and also quite bright intellecutally. He just fell into this and has a talent for it. But from speaking with him, I do not get the impression that his co-workers are of the same mind).

You come across in your blog as being rather quick to judge women, and judge us harshly. If you hate us as a sex, it will be harder for you to learn to love one of us as a person. I swear to you, really and truly, that we are not robots, we are not all alike, and we each have our own, individual reasons for doing the things we do. If you have had negative experiences (and if you are doing the dating thing, you probably have), I can certainly sympathise with all of my heart, but also I must caution you that a negative "girls are so this or that" attitude will come through, and this will just make it worse. Think about it--how much would you enjoy going out with a woman who tended to judge men very harshly (Men are shallow, they only care about looks and how thin you are, they only want stupid women who know how to keep their mouths shut, they are spoiled brats, they really just want sex, etc). Does this sound like a fun evening?

It seems to me that you are really serious about wanting to get married. Try to replace those negative thoughts with positive ones. Are women really baalei gaave, or are we the practical ones who are the ones asking the real questions about how the family is going to be built while the guy is off spinning his castles in the air? Are we shallow, or are we already thinking about the type of man we want to raise our children and the importance of having a man with the same views on education? (My Dad was very, very involved in mine; he started to assign me books from about the time I could read and used to proof my high school essays. He was tougher than any of my teachers!)

5:59 PM  
Blogger EN said...

Daphna-All I can say is thank you for being so truthful in your comments. I have learned a lot from it.

6:06 PM  
Blogger Shopaholic said...

BRAVO!! I agree with you comment,(Well,most of it...)
For starters- I don't label boys into categories either, anyone who knows me, knows that first and foremost I'm looking for someone whos a MATURE MENTCH, with priorities andWhat hes doing in his life very much depends on who HE is!
"A boy who can learn should"- and if he can't (for whatever reason) THEN DON'T! I'm not saying he shouldn't be mabitz Torah and have daily shiurim (which should be the highlight of his day) and wake up that extra hour early to 'do the daf'.
S/o who is working, because he makes the decision -albeit a hard one (with das torah), I hold them in higher esteem then the guys sitting and 'warming the benches'

Daphne- "Are women really baalei gaave, or are we the practical ones who are the ones asking the real questions about how the family is going to be built while the guy is off spinning his castles in the air? Are we shallow, or are we already thinking about the type of man we want to raise our children...?"
I could not have said it better!

9:58 PM  
Blogger EN said...

Shopaholic- There are thousand of "mature mentches" as you call them. They all have nice middos. But when you label someone who is learning Torah as he is not intelligent enough because "I" love classical music or whatever your interests are, and he doesn't, that is pretty shallow. A guy "warming the benches" (if there is such a thing) will become great one day if he has the right support. Torah geniuses are not made in a night. A guy doesn't do something that doesn't make sense. He isn't going to sit in yeshiva for "that shidduch, or rich father-in-law" it doesn't exist. (Trust me, I'm in yeshivah). Any Torah learning no matter how shelo lishma it is, has value. People go to work because they don't have the wherewithall to sit in yeshiva or hard times fall on them, it is understandable and I'm sure Hashem won't punish them but the ultimate goal is to be in a learning environment and to have bitachon. This is my opinion. It is within your right to disagree.

10:27 PM  
Blogger Daphna said...

Regarding guys learning in Yeshiva, I suspect that the situation here in Israel is quite different from that in the US. My former boss, a Haredi, FFB and all, told me that in his old community in the US, the conventional wisdom is that if a guy just does not have the mental gifts to become a great scholar, "go drive a truck!" Get out there, earn a living, and while you are at it, give tzedakah to the Yeshiva so that those who really do have the intellectual gifts will have the opportunity to develop them. In Israel, on the other hand, suffice it to say that it is far less discriminating. Not only does that reduce the overall level of scholarship, but it is the cause of a great deal of animosity between the religious and non-religious AND between the Torah v'Avodah religious and the Haredim. Not good. If it really were just the cream of the crop, and the rest were out there contributing, probably the average Yossi would be much more positive about it. Even my super secular cousin thinks it would be great if we just gave full, solid, respectable support to even 10,000 of the best scholars in Israel (really, the cream of the crop) so that they can study b'kavod, and then the rest can either go to work or otherwise support their own studies and non-working lives. But no one likes to feel like he is being taken advantage of, and combined with the army deferments...suffice it to say that there is a reason Shinui got so many votes last election.

Yes, it does take time to become a talmid chacham, and that is true no matter what the subject matter. My sister spent at least a good 10-11 years in higher education: at top Universities, on research fellowships and the like. But she is extremely focused, committed, and extraordinarily intelligent. She is now a professor. On the other hand, back when I was in school I had a roommate, W., who had been in school for at least 6 or 7 years, and seemed to have no plans to finish anytime soon. He took courses here and there, changed his major every so often and was basically using university as a place to avoid real life. I have no doubt that the type exists in Yeshivot as well (again--not sure how pronounced the phenomonom is in the US).

Not everyone is cut out for a lifetime of Torah brilliance, either through temprement or abilities. Those who ain't would be better off figuring out what gifts G-d did give them, and using those!

4:18 PM  

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